Interview with Harish Manwani, chairman, HUL
Chaitanya Kalbag, Suman Layak and Anusha Subramanian May 24, 2011Harish Manwani, Chairman and also President for Asia, Africa and east and central Europe for Unilever, says the Anglo-Dutch parent wants 70 per cent of its revenues to come from emerging markets, against 53 per cent now. From 17 emerging market countries on its radar, India and Brazil are the two larger ones in focus for Unilever. In a wide-ranging interview with Chaitanya Kalbag, Suman Layak and Anusha Subramanian, Manwani shares his thoughts.
Chaitanya Kalbag: We are meeting you right after HUL's results and wanted to just get a feeling from you on HUL's overall performance. Where does it fit in terms of Unilever Plc's global strategy? HUL contributes about 6.3 per cent to the total global Unilever revenues. But in terms of emerging markets which you are very involved with where does India stand, how important is India for Unilever?
Harish Manwani: I think firstly the answer to that question has to start with how important is developing an emerging (D&E) market for Unilever and the fact of the matter is that they are not important, they are mission critical for our future strategy. We are the only company where 53 or 54 per cent of our total business now comes from D&E markets. We are currently in quarter 1, last year we ended at 52 per cent which means that the majority of our business now is in D&E markets. It is a very large chunk of our growth. We want to prioritize and allocate our resources around D&E markets in the world.
In fact we are committed that going forward we are going to have 60 percent-plus of our R&D resources and brand development resources in D&E parts of the world. Currently we have 40 per cent of our R&D resources which are in this part of the world. We want to take that to 60 per cent. Bangalore, Shanghai - these are going to be few of the power house R&D's for Unilever. So D&E markets are very critical part of our business.
In my recent presentation to the analysts after our results announcement, I have said that we want to go from being 50 per cent emerging market business to 70 per cent emerging market business for Unilever. Just visualize what that means: this is not about small and incremental changes in resource allocation or the way we think about the word. This is a transformational way by which we are addressing what it would mean if the bulk of your business or the majority of your growth is going to come from these parts of the world. In that context, we have also identified what are going to be some of the key markets. Now in doing so it is critical that the approach you follow is at the end all about going where people are going and where money is going to be. Follow the people follow the money.
Chaitanya Kalbag: One of the interesting things about the business you are in is that Unilever had Lever Brothers in the old days so as to speak a corner on some iconic products like Lifebuoy etc. But as markets developed if you look at the number of competitors and the pace at which you work with in a market like India it is phenomenal - you have about 25-30 ferocious competitors. You mentioned after results announcement that a lot of Indian successes are due to innovation, what really does that mean, is it tweaking existing products or is it like saying we have got something totally new that is because of our size and reach that nobody else can give you?
Harish Manwani: Let me first complete the trend on the importance of India. At the end of the day all developing in emerging market cannot be equal and if I look at the BRIC (Brazil-Russia-India-China) markets, in Brazil and India we have businesses that are pretty much similar in terms of size. They are big, we have market leadership position in most of the region that we operate in and without a doubt these are markets in which we will continue to prioritize and continue to strengthen our leadership.
Then there are markets like Russia and China where we are relatively under-represented and in the last five years our strategy has been to scale up these markets rapidly. They are now some of the fastest growing markets. Then interestingly there are 13 other markets what we call the N 13 or Next 13. Between these N 13 and the BRIC markets they are pretty much going to account for between 70 per cent of the population growth and 80 per cent of the consumption growth. In these stronghold markets, the N 13 we have market share that are absolutely fantastic.
Whether you take markets like South Africa, Argentina, Bangladesh, Vietnam we are big and these are going to be big population countries, high growth countries and we have solid position. So our strategy is very clear - make sure that in the BRIC countries we continue to strengthen our leadership position in Brazil and India. We continue to scale up China and Russia, and strongly we continue to make sure that we are doing our full portfolio deployment filling in the white spaces so that we are able to accelerate the growth that we want in total for the D&E markets. So that's the story around the importance of India and the other critical markets. And by the way India is not only a critical market in terms of its turnover and profit, it is a critical market in terms of its talent too.
We are the employer of choice and we are the number one in this market and we have always been. It is a powerhouse of talent for us. Currently from India, there are 140 Indian Managers who are working all over the world in senior positions, in different functions, in strong leadership positions and we feel very proud of that. It is a big provider of talent to Unilever. So that's India.
Now let me tell you about innovation. It is at the heart of the business that we do. This is to make sure that we are consistently and constantly making better products, and ensuring that we really improve. What we call market development at the end whether its about more users, getting more usage, giving people more benefits and this cycle has to be done in a manner in which we have to do continuous improvement and make a little more money. That's really the game, that's business and this is what we want to do. How we want to do it? We want to make sure we do it in a sustainable and responsible way which is where our sustainable Unilever plan comes in.
We are one of the few companies who have made a commitment that we will not only double our business for Unilever but also make sure that we reduce our environmental impact by half. 100 per cent of our raw materials are going to be sourced from sustainable sources. We source 7 million tons of agricultural raw material from sustainable sources. We are one of the largest buyers of palm oil; we are already taking a lead in terms of trying to source as much of palm oil from sustainable sources. We were amongst the first to go in for sourcing tea which is certified by Rainforest Alliance. So this is all about making sure that we are able to grow our business but also grow it sustainably and responsibly.
To be able to do this we have to make sure, we have to do continuous market development i.e. more users, more usage and more benefits. It is all about innovation, the right level of investment, building our brand and it is about fantastic execution. This is at the end the axis around which the whole business has to move. In our kind of products that are everyday products, innovation has to be an ongoing process. So when we look at innovation we have to look at what we want to bring to the market today and at the same time we should have a pipeline of innovation that should take us through to the next 3-5 years. That's because as I said it is not about innovating today and say after three years we will come in with something new. That's not the way, you have to constantly renovate and refresh your brand. Now in that process there are some innovations which will be more destructive in the process, some innovations which will be more incremental, and you will need both these kinds of innovation. You need innovation and renovation at the same time.
So when you ask me a question that what is it that we have done? Firstly, it is deployment of our portfolio by itself is innovation in large parts of the world. So when we launch Dove Bar in 20 new markets. Dove is an innovation in that market. It does not exist there and therefore it's an innovation we are offering the consumers there. When we decided to launch Dove Shampoo in India, it was a big innovation. It may not be an innovation in other market where we had already launched it. But the fact of the matter is that you innovate for consumers. At the end, our job is to delight our consumers. That's why we are innovating. It's all about getting more users, more usage - it is all about our consumers. So the innovation that we are doing is all directed to finding local insights but using our global might to be able to find solutions that fulfill local needs.
Chaitanya Kalbag: Levers' has always been famous, especially for India, for its huge reach into hinterland. So what was left to achieve. I read about 500,000 more outlets. Was there really so much left untapped?
Harish Manwani: There is always that much left. Just to give you an example. Let me again talk to you about the total developing and emerging market scenario. It will give you a sense of what we are saying. We cover 5 million outlets directly in developing and emerging markets. Our products indirectly cover another 5 million outlets, then there is 10 million which is sold through the wholesale channel. Our job is to make sure that the 5 million that we cover is better. Our strategy around coverage is all about more stores, better stores, better served. Our program called 'Perfect Stores' allows us again in a repeatable way. Organisations like us require repeatable models. So we have created a model which says that these 5 million outlets that we go to in the next two years should become perfect stores. What we mean by this is that in every one of the 5 million stores we have got the right assortment, the right pricing, the right promotion, the right shelving, the right visibility and the right customer service. We have kind of created a repeatable model and we are using high level technology in a simple way to be deployed in a way to achieve what is called as 'Perfect Stores'.
Chaitanya Kalbag: Can you give me an example, I thought with your experience in India you would come up with a model which is exportable to other developing markets.
Harish Manwani: It is. India is one of the leading edges of what I am talking about. The perfect store model is applicable to India. It is not an imported concept, it is something that we have created. India did not have the Perfect Store Model. This model actually tells you what is it that drives demand? We are moving from a situation where distribution is seen as a supply-side job to saying how do we treat distribution as a demand-side job. Which is how do we create consumer pull at the point of sale and this is a very important shift in mindset. And what we are trying to do is segmentation of channels and stores because what we do in a modern trade outlet, or in a pharmacy outlet, or in a big Kirana store or in rural has to be different in terms of the assortment we create and so on.
Take India, for example, because we have 1 million outlets, different types, so many SKUs, you need to use technology to be able to create that segmentation. Which is what we have done in India, we have created a model wherein the salesman is able to walk into a shop, Gupta Stores, and decide based on technology, he will be told that these are the 10 SKUs that are mission critical for the Gupta Stores.
The second most important thing is to make sure that there is visibility and display of Lifebuoy. Thirdly, make sure that the share of shelf in Gupta Stores for the hair care products is X. All this is now being done with the help of latest technology and to be able to do it across in the developing and emerging market over 5 million outlets every day in a repeatable way, is where the capability comes in. There is no rocket science in this. It's doing it which is rocket science. And India is at the leading edge of this. But it does not mean that India was doing it in the past and suddenly stopped it.
Now if you ask me a question where are these 500000 outlets, doesn't it stop anywhere? I just gave you an example that in the larger context, India is a huge country. There are a large number of outlets that we only go through wholesale channels and indirectly. The advantage of going directly into these channels is the fact that we can control. We can have better control in terms of demand generation in these outlets, to have the right product in the right outlet for the right consumer. At the end it is all driven by what the shoppers are buying. In the past, whether you went to a rural or urban outlet, small or big shop, pharmacy store or others you would sell what the salesman could sell. But now we do not do that. The assortment is different. We are discovering that these 500,000 outlets that we are directly covering, are the ones where our products were not going. Our products used to get there but we not intervening to create off take and to accelerate demand which is important.
Chaitanya Kalbag: In terms of Management and Marketing it seems to be a very good and powerful way, like you said creating the point of sale, demand, etc., What about the consumer herself? You have worked in Latin America, Europe, Africa and now Asia. Indian consumer is very needy about price, quality and constantly looking for more bargains. How does the consumer thing translate into a far more responsive organization across the world?
Harish Manwani: I don't think there is any difference in what we are trying to do and what our customers are trying to do. We are all here to ensure we satisfy the needs of our customers and shoppers. I think more and more the relationship between our large customers and us is collaborative. It is about making sure that we come up with joint business plans. It is about making sure that we are able to discuss at the beginning of the year what are the activities we need to do together that will optimize throughput both for them as well as for ourselves. We agree on a promotional plan to make sure that they stimulate the right demand and in the process of doing this we also discus how this can be profitable for them as well as for us. So the idea of the Joint Business Plan is at the heart of this collaborative relationship. The relationship with big customers can get transparent and open because the metric by which we measure our success is the same. Contrary to popular belief if you take a market like India, I do not know if you know that our market share in modern trade is higher than our market shares in general trade.
In fact, because it is modern trade we are able to sit down and have joint business plans, we have national brands, we have brands that are no.1 and 2 and this is what the customers are interested in.
Anusha Subramanian: You mentioned about using technology to penetrate in the rural market. Could you elaborate a more on this. There are smaller players who have been using technology in a better ways to penetrate into these markets, how different would HUL do it?
Harish Manwani: This is not the first time we are doing it. But because technology is making such leaps that our ability to accept the best technology and deploy it is really what is making the difference. What we are trying to make sure is that we simplify the life of the person who is at the front-end. The sales person who makes the calls to the stores we want to make their life simple by removing adhocism out of the whole system. There is huge amount of technology in the palm that he has. He does not have to understand the wiring of this device what he will get is some specific guidelines when he enters the store and the job that is to be done. Second, technology allows us to differentiate the job to be done depending on the kind of store it is. That's precisely what we have done but our ability to do it in 100s and 1000s of stores in a consistent repeatable way is what is the difference between what others may be doing and what we are doing.
The database that we use in order to create the technology is factual. It is loaded with all the details and we know if it is a small shop in Chennai, a super market in Hyderabad, or a rural market in UP. You can know what's the profile of that market from that data, or if you want the consumer panel data or indeed our own data and we use all this to be able to model what is it that an outlet like this should be able to buy, what kind of assortment it should have, what kind of brand should be emphasized more here. It's the availability of technology and the ability to do it uniquely because of the reach, access and scale that we have which is advantageous hence we can do it.
Anusha Subramanian: We are hearing a lot about input costs rising, etc. As a global player do you have strategies to mitigate these risks? How do you buy? Are do you anything different?
Harish Manwani: I think the most important thing that we are trying to do is that in an inflationary environment we continue to give the best value to the consumers. If you lose sight of that then you become uncompetitive. So our starting point is to make sure how our brands continue to give the best value. In doing so our first and most important thing is to deliver the right quality product to the consumers and then the most important effort that we need to make is to keep our cost base down. In fact, in today's inflationary environment the biggest thing we are doing is to step up our cost effective measures. Second, we are trying to keep any cost that does not add value out of our system. So its ruthless focus in cutting down indirects, ruthless focus in cost efficiency. Cost efficiencies are because we have scale in terms of buying, we like to make sure that we are always benchmarking that we are buying our raw material and packaging materials in the most cost effective pricing.
We are trying to make sure that every activity system starting from the time we buy the raw material till the time we convert it at the factory to the time we deliver it into the shops is being done in the most efficient manner.
Last year, we had a fabulous cost effectiveness program which gave us a lot of savings. This year we are going to do even better than that. We are thus trying to constantly improve. There is front-end cost of an organization which involves selling and direct marketing and back end costs of an organization which includes the support functions. We are trying to make sure that we keep the front end fully resourced but ensuring we get all efficiencies in terms of support functions. So that we do not end up creating gigantic organizations that are more skewed towards running back offices rather than front offices. Quite simply our approach is all about business as usual on growth but business unusual on cost. This business runs on growth, it is the key driver.
Chaitanya Kalbag: You must have been a lot pressured by commodities market, only last week there was some respite. How does that work? It seems like you are in an almost impossible position where you have got to maintain price levels yet your raw material costs are invariably rising. So how does the two balance?
Harish Manwani: You cannot be opportunistic in terms of changing your entire way of managing the supply chain; you need to have a strategy to do that. But firstly, coming back to commodity costs. Of course there is a pressure. The only thing is that it is across the board for everybody. The second bit is we have been here before. This is not the first time we are seeing commodity cost inflation. Unfortunately, we had the same situation in 2008 and we have it again now in 2011. The first thing is to accept the reality that costs are what they are and like I said once you understand that we are trying to drive consumer value and making sure that then we are able to deliver that consumer value cost effectively in the most optimal way is really what the solution is.
Cost effectiveness program is the most important. It does not only mean cutting costs but finding alternative formulations, R&D, understanding from the consumers what is it that they don't need in our brand and what is it they find the most critical thing in our brands. All these matter. It is all about much more focus around our consumers and understanding what adds value. So when I use the phrase 'Consumer Value' I am not using it in the generic sense. With the bells and whistles in our product there are some bells that are important and some whistles are not so important. How do we make sure what we are giving our consumers is in fact exactly what they want.
The first and the most important thing in consumer value is to make sure you have a product that is absolutely top class. All our products go through blind product testing, to ensure that they are delivering to what the consumer wants. But, often what you don't look at is: what are the alternative ways of delivering the same benefit to the consumer and that is where R&D comes in where we optimize alternative formulations to be able to deliver the product that the consumer wants are deliver it cost effectively.
If froth, lather is the most important thing in terms of bathing product then you make sure you give the froth that the consumer wants rather than the other way round. The most critical thing in a bar of soap is to give people a fantastic sensorial experience of fragrance, lather. In fact in a year like this we are adding more money to give people better fragrances. For the Lux relaunch we have significantly improved our fragrances to give even better experience to our consumers and this is in spite of Inflation.
You start by saying despite of inflation we have to win in the market place. We have to win with consumers. Consumers have a choice of buying us or buying someone else's product.
We do not have a choice of selling anything but Lux. So we got to get this right first time around and the starting point is the consumer. We have to work ways to deliver experiences in the most cost effective way. This logic is the same whether the consumer is at the bottom or the top end.
For example, Wheel detergent powder - we were the only multinational player who decided to go to the max end of the detergent market because that is where the volumes were and we decided to create the model and be competitive. After studying why a consumer want to buy a detergent powder at that end of the market we found lather is a very important cure for that, hence we decided to give them lather in our product. We also found out that a lot of detergents that the consumers were buying at that end of the market was also giving them a burning sensation in their hands, the point of difference was that our product gives you a fantastic wash, at a great price and is gentle on your hands. So we created Wheel which delivered all these three things that the consumer wanted. This approach is the same whether you are doing wheel or Surf Excel which is right at the very top.
Another example is that of Surf Excel. We found that people loved using that product. One of the great findings is that 40 per cent of India is water distressed and so people wanted to use less water in detergents and we were the first in the market to come up with Surf Easy Wash which says you save two buckets of water in terms of rinsing. So we created a formulation for this market.
Therefore my point on cost effectiveness is that you have to constantly go back to the consumer and say what is it that will add value? There is no point giving them what they don't want. Here is another example of something that consumers don't want. Thirty years ago when we first launched shampoo sachets, our pricing strategy was this is the cost and then we added our margin to it and that was the price. This is simple basics of economics. But we were wrong as the market never took off, because the basics of economics are sometimes different from the basics of marketing. The basics of marketing is - What is the consumer willing to pay for a product.
In the shampoo sachet case the consumer did not want to pay Rs.2, she wanted to pay Re.1. She washes her hair once a week and therefore wants enough in that sachet to give her a wow wash. That one wash a week is really important for her than a person who uses a shampoo every day, because if this goes wrong the whole week is gone and you are out.
We discovered she uses a lot of hair oil and the shampoos that we were selling had a high level of conditioning. This suppresses the cleaning power. So this particular consumer was buying our product which was loaded with conditioner and loaded with cost and she was not getting the best wash because it would not clean the oil off. Hence we reformulated the product sold it at Re.1, and the consumer preferred it to the product that we were selling and we started making money on it. Rest is history. This was Clinic Plus, and now it is the largest selling brand today.
Chaitanya Kalbag: This is what I meant when I said in India particularly there must be things that have their own peculiarity that works very different from other markets. You cannot have a McDonald kind of formula where you bring in a franchise and stamp it out.
Harish Manwani: Here again when we talk of McDonald kind of formula. A lot of multinationals have coined this phrase 'Think Global Act Local'. My own belief is totally different. Unilever's philosophy is think local because there are only local consumers. I don't think there is any consumer in Mumbai who will shake my hands and say hello I am a global consumer. I have never met one may there are. When I travel to Istanbul or Durban or Moscow I do not have consumer coming and telling me I am a global consumer. So you have to think Local. You have to only think about your consumers and customers around you but act global. Once you know what your local consumer wants then you have to use the might of Unilever and your global understanding, technology knowledge and understanding of this category to provide the best solution for that local reach. That's called 'Think Local Act Global'. So when we say our consumer wants a product that is low on conditioning and high on cleaning the technology to develop this came from our global might where there is whole lot of technology that we have developed to deliver a particular product.
Similarly for example the Knorr Soupy Noodles that we have launched. We wanted to come in with a differentiated product. This market noodles is all about snacking. Our expertise in soup and how do you combine that with snacking insight. We came up with Soupy noodles which is healthy and nutritious and leverages our global technology on soups. We had a local insight but the product we created was leveraging on global technology.
Chaitanya Kalbag: So soupy noodles are unique to India.
Harish Manwani: Yes they are. We have variety of noodles but this idea of soupy noodles which is snacking idea is very much Indian.
I will give you another example of local insight. In China everyone drinks soup, they want to make it from scratch. They do not like packet soups that's because they like the taste of long boiled dense soup. All our soups were dry soups, either granules or cubes - industry norm. From this local insight we created for first time anywhere in the world - jelly bouillon. The bouillon in jelly form which gives freshness and the taste is like the long boiled dense soup. That innovation was done with a local insight in China using our global might. This is called Think Local and Act Global - no one in China R&D could have created this, we needed our global might. Because this concept worked so well here we could take this same concept and launch it across Europe where they use stalk pods. This jelly bouillon became the new concept of stalk pod and gave even better taste and flavor that stalk and it's become a big success. These are examples across the world of local insights and global thinking.
Pureit is a completely locally developed in India albeit we have used both Unilever and HUL technology but, the idea came from here. All the water purification devices in India were filtered on tap or pumped in with electricity - we said what is biggest need, most people don't have access to running water and electricity and secondly, their biggest worry is not to remove particulate dirt and impurities but they want to remove viruses from water. How to do it to assure water is free of this - boil it. So we had a simple brief based on local consumer insight that we wanted a product which is as good as boiled water without using running water or electricity. And was born out of that brief - Pureit. It's the first ever device, which provides water as good as boiled water. No one has yet claimed that Rs One crore challenge that we have given including other companies which can challenge us. There is no product in the market that matches the water quality. When I launched this in New Delhi as part of the World Economic Forum as part of our sustainability presentation, I said bring any water and out it on top of this and I will drink the water that comes out at the other end because it is 100 per cent pure. We are now rolling it out in other developing and emerging markets, where there is a major need due to poor quality of water. But, interestingly large parts of the United States there is a great need for a product that removes impurities like arsenic and so on and so forth. So who knows where we will go next.
Chaitanya Kalbag: Now how about coming to you yourself. I understand that Mr. Paul Polman is very happy with everyone's performance here. The company has given out huge bonuses. How about you yourself -with all your vast experiences across markets do you feel you should be looking at heading the global organization at some point?
Harish Manwani: Firstly, talking about rewards in a large company like ours there is a system. I run a region, which is Asia, Africa, Central and Eastern Europe and Middle East, which is little over 40 per cent of Unilever's business. It is the biggest growing and the most significant contributor to overall Unilever growth. The responsibility of giving performance targets to countries and managing it is at the level of the region. But, there are key countries where performance is key. There is a methodology in place to do this - we set targets, we manage or businesses dynamically, do resource allocation. This is a structured process and these are well laid down processes approved by the board. In the case of HUL, the remuneration both in year remuneration and long term schemes are all approved by our directors and shareholders. So there is nothing that is not transparent. It's all there in our annual report. So we are not doing anything in an adhoc manner.
Chaitanya Kalbag: Basically what I was getting at is that there has obviously been a huge improvement in the company's performance.
Harish Manwani: So the point is that the one thing we are definitely trying to do is bring about a sharper performance culture within the organisation. By giving sharper clarity on expected performance from people, set targets, jobs to be done. I think people are happy with this transparency and sharpness. The other thing is context of the market keeps changing sometimes. You start with something in the beginning of the year and by the end of the year the context may change.
Chaitanya Kalbag: In the old days Levers was almost like joining the IAS. You went in and you were sent into the farthest villages, one learnt the ropes and then you became a manager and then stayed there for life. So are you still full of lifers.
Harish Manwani: We are who we are because we did exactly what you said which is our ability to send people irrespective of where they came from a local college, an MBA, Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard, IIMs or wherever they came from you always started by picking up your bags and going out there and discovering India, spending time in our markets and factories. The reason we are the company we are today because many generations before us created this awesome understanding of the Indian business system and market which allowed the reach of our products to go even deeper than the media reach. That means our brands were growing that made the role of distribution and sales a marketing role. The reason we were able to do this with such sharpness and smartly because we had the best minds in the company doing this. Everyone here has sold soaps. I am proud of the fact that I am a product of this system and I am proud of the fact that we still do it.
Chaitanya Kalbag: But you are still not answering my question. When are you going the lead the full 100 per cent?
Harish Manwani: I thought I answered the question. All of us are doing our jobs and ultimately we all do the job that we can best do. If you keep thinking what you are going to do next, you cannot focus on what you are doing currently. When I joined this company as a management trainee I wasn't thinking of the fact that I was going to be the chairman of this company. What I was thinking is how do I do my job as an area sales manager, the brand manager, the marketing manager as best as I can. I do believe that's another great thing about this organization. We all have a choice. You asked me a question earlier do I expect people to work here?
The difference I expect is - it's not about loyalty to the company, it's about commitment to the company.
As long as you are in the company are you committed. To me that's the most important thing. Some of us like me have been here many years. I have been here for 34 years, the important thing is not that I have spent so many years that's not a qualification by the way - what is important is whether you are committed to this organisation. Commitment has a better value for me and second is about values. We do not tell freshers when they come in I want you to spend 35 years in this company. But I do tell them that if you really want to be a quality product of Unilever or Hindustan Unilever, then I want you to get excited about what you do, be committed and have the right values. We will not let anyone compromise on values
Anusha Subramanian: How difficult or easy has it been to get talent in the developing and emerging markets?
Harish Manwani: It's interesting. We are No1 employer of choice in 7-8 of the top 10-12 developing and emerging markets that we have i.e. India, Indonesia, South Africa, Turkey to name a few. In China, we were number 15, we are now no. 3. I believe at the end of the day you can have as many strategies as you want but you need the right kind of people. I have a two-point agenda - do we have the right people and secondly do we have destinations that people feel excited about, else they don't want to work for you. This is not about what you do today it is about what you are trying to create. Because we are the employer of choice, in our part of the world - Asia is a power house for us, in terms of talent and businesses. Latin America - Argentina, for instance is our most successful business, it's not the size that matters. Being employer of choice, drawing the best and allowing them to work anywhere in the world is what we aim for.